15 responses to “Crazy Christians are, in fact, crazy.”

1. 

   Denise

   Sat 2 February 2008

   I think, as a very sinful Christian, that we, or at least *I*, tend to do things to keep ourselves from doing the very things that we hate to do but love to do at the same time. So maybe Clean Fix was started because of the dude’s LOVE for such “smutt”. Maybe he knew his own weakness and wanted to help out others with the same weakness or keep them from having a taste of it or whatever. But maybe it all became too much for him – he thought he could handle being around it all, but it was just too much temptation. So instead of Clean Fix helping him stay away from the very thing that he hated AND loved, it provided easy access to which he wasn’t strong enough to say no to and it ballooned. Kind of like pringles – you can’t have just one. I don’t think Crazy Christian is seeking to restrict or eliminate the deviant behavior because it is so deviant, but because he has such a love for it to begin with and knows that he will succumb to it if the opportunity presents itself. but what indeed ends up happening is that Crazy Christian becomes even MORE attracted to said deviant behavior and loses “control” entirely. The restriction/elimination was a “law” thing, when what he needed was God. ((sigh))

   Normally I would not comment on ANYTHING you post or even say – as you are WAY over my head. But this is something that hits too close to home for me NOT to say something. My “elimination” of a very small and innocent behavior in 1994ish led to me succumbing to it in 1996ish which eventually led to twins in 2002. It spiraled. I made a mountain out of a mole hill which made the mole hill too delicious to resist. And until 2005 nobody got hurt but me, so that was ok. But now I have to see the pain in my daughters’ eyes every single day.

   I think you may be right in some cases that the restrictive culture tends to cultivate deviants, but not CREATE them. I think the seed is already there, and the restriction makes the temptation all that much more delicious and enticing. BUT, how can it be the RESULT of “ask and you shall be forgiven”??? Are you saying that the forgiveness makes it okay to sin simply because we can be forgiven? Or at least that is what WE think – or how we rationalize it all? Something inside of me says that’s not quite how it works, but that’s all I’ve got.

   I agree about the poverty thing. HOWEVER, I think these evangelical mega churches feel that they are “raising” people who are dependent upon them for the food and clothes, etc. We take advantage of the generosity of these folks. We become enablers instead of empowering them to help themselves. I think this is why these folks go to other countries where they are actually appreciated and needed. I don’t necessarily agree with this mentality, but I can see how it could be. I’ve been to churches – too recently, in fact – to receive help for my family – money, food, what not. They have to have these strict rules or else they would help the same few over and over because the few would keep coming back. The few become DEPENDENT on the help.

   And can’t we hate the sin without hating the sinner? I have a friend who is gay. I love him dearly, but I do not support the fact that he is gay. Just like my not being married. My Christian family loves me and supports me, but I’m SURE they did not support the fact that I was not married to my children’s father. I can say for sure that *I* don’t support it, and I lived it.

   Okay. I’m done now.

2. 

   Berck

   Mon 4 February 2008

   Denise wrote:
   > [snip]
   > itself. but what indeed ends up happening is that Crazy Christian
   > becomes even MORE attracted to said deviant behavior and loses “control”
   > entirely. The restriction/elimination was a “law” thing, when what he
   > needed was God. ((sigh))

   If he’d gone about life in a less religious manner, I suspect he could have found more appropriate ways to deal with his desires. I’m no psychological expert, but I’d hazard a guess that fact that he probably viewed his own desires as nearly inhuman as a result of religious indoctrination resulted in ineffective and unhealthy ways to deal with it. Which caused those desires to explode into terribly socially inappropriate and what is likely a morally “wrong” behavior. (Now, this is all rampant speculation on my part, but I bet the two teenagers who took money from him in exchange for oral sex probably wouldn’t have done so if they hadn’t been raised by religious crazies either.)

   > Normally I would not comment on ANYTHING you post or even say – as you
   > are WAY over my head. But this is something that hits too close to home

   What’s this nonsense about being over your head? You’ve written one of the better responses to my posts I’ve gotten in a long time. I write posts like this one in hopes that I can encourage debate or understand something more about the subject matter. I welcome your (and others’) comments and debate.

   > for me NOT to say something. My “elimination” of a very small and
   > innocent behavior in 1994ish led to me succumbing to it in 1996ish which
   > eventually led to twins in 2002. It spiraled. I made a mountain out of
   > a mole hill which made the mole hill too delicious to resist. And until
   > 2005 nobody got hurt but me, so that was ok. But now I have to see the
   > pain in my daughters’ eyes every single day.

   You’re basically making my point that your personal belief system failed to allow you to eliminate a behavior which was clearly contrary to your beliefs. I’ll cede your later point that a restrictive culture doesn’t necessarily plant the seed of the behavior that it seeks to restrict. You’re probably right about that, but once the seed is there, I think we may be in agreement, that a restrictive religious culture doesn’t actually work in restricting anything.

   I don’t want to be presumptuous by engaging in random guessing on topics I clearly don’t know much about, so if I’m totally off base here, I apologize. I think your case is quite a bit different from my original point. While I suspect you are (and were) opposed to extra-marital sex, that’s totally different from actively seeking to prevent others from engaging in it, (i.e. enacting legislature to ban it), or seeking to punish or harass those who did engage in it. I’d just like to say that unless you were doing those things, being an unmarried mother doesn’t place you in my category of crazy Christians. But I can certainly see why my post hits close to home, and your response is not irrelevant.

   Your situation, if it’s as I imagine it to be (and like I said, if it’s not, I apologize in advance) is not at all atypical of someone who’s been failed by Christian culture. Preaching abstinence not only doesn’t work, it’s downright harmful. People are going to have extra-marital sex. This is not a sign of the depravity of our modern age, it’s been the case since the dawn of time. The only major difference today, I think, is that lots of folks don’t make a huge effort to cover it up like they did in the past. There’s certainly evidence that extra-marital sex is often a bad idea, but banning the behavior isn’t going to stop it. I suspect that it does just the opposite because as you say, restriction makes temptation more exciting. Furthermore, in the case of sex, Christians go a step further in that when they do fall from whatever fluffy white dream cloud they’ve been living on, they fall into unsafe sex. Christians are convinced that they shouldn’t be having sex at all, so they’re not going to seek out birth control or protection from STDs. Even worse, they’re going to advocate against easy access to such things for fear that they’re going to encourage people to have sex!

   It’s easy (and maybe even possibly correct) to advocate abstinence, but why not go a step forward and acknowledge that we’re human and after breathing, eating when we’re hungry and drinking when we’re thirsty, sex is one of the strongest desires we’re likely to encounter. Biologically, we’re simply not built to resist sex, so I think it’s silly to think that everyone is going to do so.

   When your girls get older, I’d be interested to see what sort of sex education you deem appropriate for them.

   > more delicious and enticing. BUT, how can it be the RESULT of “ask and
   > you shall be forgiven”??? Are you saying that the forgiveness makes it
   > okay to sin simply because we can be forgiven? Or at least that is what
   > WE think – or how we rationalize it all? Something inside of me says
   > that’s not quite how it works, but that’s all I’ve got.

   It’s one of the many bits of born-again Christianity I find so infuriating. What motivation is there to do what’s good when the sole motivation the religion gives to do good is eternal reward, but why bother when you’ve already been forgiven the sins you’re about to commit? I think that Christians who do good do so not at all because of their Christianity. I don’t know when religion got a monopoly on morality.

   > money, food, what not. They have to have these strict rules or else
   > they would help the same few over and over because the few would keep
   > coming back. The few become DEPENDENT on the help.

   Sure, some people may be in a tough spot and need food and shelter to get them through the month. But the sort of dependence you mention simply comes from the wrong sort of aid. The only solution to poverty in a capitalistic society is education. Unfortunately, while we have one of the most capitalistic societies in the world, we have one of the worst education systems. Giving out food is not going to help in the long run, and placing restrictions on it isn’t going to help the situation. The only cure for poverty is education, not handouts, and churches, in general, rarely even have the resources for helpful education. Furthermore, when they do, they seem to think that as long as someone’s got Jesus in their life, they don’t really need to be taught a useful skill like welding or brick laying.

   > And can’t we hate the sin without hating the sinner? I have a friend

   Sure. But just because you hate him being gay, do you think you should you be able to restrict his rights? Do you think that restricting his rights will make him un-gay?

   > Okay. I’m done now.

   Thanks for posting!

3. 

   Jonah

   Mon 4 February 2008

   A) Daniel Thompson had nothing to do with Clean Flicks. http://dmnnewswire.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=295941-0

   B) He’s more than likely Mormon.

4. 

   Berck

   Mon 4 February 2008

   C) Yes, of course he’s Mormon. And Mormons are Christian.

5. 

   Cara

   Wed 6 February 2008

   Acutally, Mormons aren’t Christians. It’s another sect that’s borrowed from Christianity, but if you dive into it you’ll see there are many differences that keep it from being Christian. A key test: Who is Jesus? If he was just a good man or a prophet, then it’s not a derivation of Christianity. And no man can be equal to Christ. So when Mormons believe that Joseph Smith is superior to Christ, that takes you far from Christianity. We don’t even have to dig deeper in the analysis, though there is much further you can go.

6. 

   Berck

   Thu 7 February 2008

   Actually, by any reasonable definition of Christian, the Mormons certainly are Christians. Your brief post indicates that you don’t seem to know enough about the religion to make that claim. Just because you disagree with them does not mean you get to claim that they are not Christian. You can certainly claim that they are bad Christians and disagree with them.

   I’ve never met a Mormon who claims that Joseph Smith is, “superior to Jesus.” In fact, they believe just the opposite. They claim that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and apostle of Jesus (the last claim is a bit odd, but certainly doesn’t make them non-xtian). Claiming the Mormons think Joseph Smith is superior to Jesus is absurd as claiming the Catholics think that Peter is superior to Jesus. My Mormon friends pray to Jesus, not Joseph Smith, just like any other Christian I’ve known.
   From the web:

   “We certainly do believe that Christ is God and Lord.” That alone is enough to make them Christian. Even by your definition, nowhere do I see them referring to Jesus as “a good man or a prophet.” (In fact, if you want to call him a prophet, he fits all of the old testament criteria for being a false prophet, but that’s another argument.) But, if you want to go further, from the same web site:

   “As a Latter-day Saint, I have been taught, and have personally chosen, to accept Christ as my Savior. I am taught to follow Him and feast on His word. I have no qualms in insisting that real Mormons are Christians. We worship Christ and covenant to follow Him. We are baptized in His name to follow Him, we partake of the sacrament (the holy communion) weekly to remember the sacrifice of His blood and to remember His victory over death, we pray to the Father in His name, and we strive to obey Him, knowing that it is only through His merits and grace that we are saved. He is constantly held up in our meetings as our Savior, our Redeemer, our Lord, and the author of our faith and our salvation. We believe that He stands at the head of His living Church, leading it as in days of old through revelation to His prophets and apostles. The Christ we worship is the living Christ, the Son of God, foretold in the Old Testament, revealed in the New Testament, and affirmed in The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.”

   Joanna’s made some pretty odd claims about them not being Christian as well, but by the definitions she’s given, she wouldn’t consider the Catholics Christian either, and that’s a bit silly.

   Now, don’t get me wrong, I think the LDS religion is pretty darned insane. But you don’t get to disown it just because it’s insane.

7. 

   Jonah

   Thu 7 February 2008

   You quote from your Web, and I’ll quote from mine. http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/are_mormons_christian.htm

   Note the following quote from, “What Mormons Think of Christ” (LDS publication, pages 32-34):

   “Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much is believed and taught on this subject, however, it is utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one’s salvation.”

   It goes further to say that salvation is “conditional on faith, and repentance, and baptism and keeping the commands of God.”

   Mormons believe that they are saved by grace only after they’ve done their best (very similar to the view of Islam). Christians believe that we are saved by grace even when we do our worst.

   As for Cara’s point, see this page. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/eternal_judge.htm

8. 

   Berck

   Thu 7 February 2008

   Yeah, that page you linked to pretty much proves Cara wrong. It says:

   Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus is truly the Only Begotten Son of God. We consider Joseph Smith to be a Prophet of God and Apostle of Jesus Christ similar to those men mentioned in the Bible like Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, and John. Latter-day Saints do not worship Joseph Smith or consider him to be equal to Christ. He is simply a servant of Christ, called to the holy ministry by Jesus himself, despite his mortal imperfections.

   Furthermore, Catholics also more or less believe that salvation is “conditional on faith, and repentance, and baptism and keeping the commands of God.” They aren’t Christian? The “faith alone” thing is purely protestant nonsense–once again, just because you disagree, doesn’t mean you get to disown them. (In all technicality, the Catholics also believe salvation is possible for non-Christians, does that make them non-Christian as well?) Your statement, “Christians believe that we are saved by grace even when we do our worst,” is true of some Christians, but certainly not all.

9. 

   Jonah

   Thu 7 February 2008

   It’s an interesting page.

   As for the Catholics, I’m not sure where your quote comes from. Here’s some Apostle Paul: Ephesians 2:8-9.

   8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

10. 

    Berck

    Thu 7 February 2008

    Yeah, I read it. It’s a really bad argument based on something Joseph Smith supposedly said, and it’s adequately refuted on the rest of the page, I think. You can hardly badly interpret a Joseph Smith quote to proclaim that “Mormons think Joseph Smith is superior to Jesus,” because that’s not what LDS says of itself, and I doubt you’d even manage to get any individual Mormons to say it.

    Well, the quote was yours. My statement came from years of sitting in Catholic theology class, and thus knowing the Catholics believe that you need faith *and* works for salvation, unlike most of the protestants. But if you’d like here’s some quotes from Catholic internets:

    “Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 – The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.”

    And I see your bible quote and raise you a dozen from that site. You can look them up if you want, I’ve spent enough time with your Bible to know that one can find a quote to support either side of any particular Christian debate. There’s a reason you guys have a zillion sects–your text is so contradictory.

    So, you’re sticking by your point that Catholics are not Christian?

11. 

    Jonah

    Thu 7 February 2008

    You’re quoting John Salza a lawyer. He’s not the Pope, he’s not a bishop, not a priest, and not even a theologian (well, maybe an amateur one). I think a Catholic, John Salza, has his theology wrong. You still haven’t told me what the official Catholic doctrine is.

    Furthermore, all of those references are from the Old Covenant, which, indeed, depend on obedience to God’s commandments. (Except for one of them which is from the Apocrypha, which not even the Jews think is Scripture anymore.) No one could be saved through belief in Jesus because Jesus hadn’t even been born yet.

    Let me type out the passage from Acts 15 you referenced (this is the pivotal moment in Christianity where the apostles decided whether or not new believers had to basically convert to Judasim first):

    7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

12. 

    Berck

    Thu 7 February 2008

    Okay, fine I’ll engage in your bible-quote-tossing game, but just this once. It’s not really relevant, because I think both you and the Catholics are wrong, I’m just trying to point out what the Catholics think.

    The book of James says: What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill’, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. (James 2:14-16)

    Mat 7:16-20 Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?’ Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evil doers.’ Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock”

    Matt: 19:21 Then someone came to him and said “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life…[Jesus said] go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…When the young man heard this word he went away grieving, for he had many possessions…

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done.

    Okay, fine, I didn’t know you needed an authoritative source. I just took the first one that popped up. I thought this was something everyone knew about Catholics. Apparently you didn’t spend so much time learning about religion as you did learning about the Bible. From Catholic Answers, I don’t think you can more internet-authoritative than that.

    What You Must Do to Be Saved

    Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we “earn” (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).

    The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what “Bible Christians” teach; see Jas. 2:24).

    When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).

    Even though only God’s grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6–7, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10, Matt. 25:34–40).

    Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but do not do the things I command?” (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21–23, 19:16–21).

    We do not “earn” our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8–9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8–9).

    Paul said, “God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work” (Phil. 2:13). John explained that “the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, ‘I know him,’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3–4, 3:19–24, 5:3–4).

    Since no gift can be forced on the recipient—gifts always can be rejected—even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5–6, Rom. 11:22–23, 1 Cor. 15:1–2; CCC 1854–1863). Paul tells us, “The wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23).

    Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10, Gal. 5:19–21).

    Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God “will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness” (Rom. 2:6–8).

    Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849–1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

    Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
    Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as “their personal Lord and Savior.” The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

    Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: “If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:11–12).

    If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

    The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

    Note that Paul includes an important condition: “provided you remain in his kindness.” He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, “Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

    If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”

    So, are you sticking by your point that catholics are not Christian?

13. 

    Berck

    Thu 7 February 2008

    Here’s a more concise statement from Catholic.com:

    In sum, the Church teaches that salvation is a process of becoming holier and holier through time. All of this is a work of grace that God performs in our hearts through faith. Works done in faith are the natural completion of believing in Christ. As we trust and do God’s work, he instills within us more grace so that we may become holier and so be ready to meet him at the end of our life.

14. 

    Berck

    Thu 7 February 2008

    To sum up, you said, “Christians believe that we are saved by grace even when we do our worst.” This is not true of Catholics, who believe, for instance, that if you die after committing a sin but without confessing it and doing penance for it first, you are likely going to hell, in spite of a baptism or any regular proclaiming of your faith that you might have already done. Thus, by your definition, the Catholics are not Christian. If you want to claim that Mormons also aren’t Christian by the same definition, that’s fine, but I think any definition that excludes the Catholics as being Christian is a poor definition of Christian.

15. 

    Jonah

    Sun 10 February 2008

    There are lots of interesting articles on Catholic.com about Mormonism. http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?query=mormon

    For a good explanation of the Catholic view of salvation see this. http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

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